Assumption.  Speculation.  No cold facts so surely it must be a Ponzi.   :twisted:   That's right, anything that can't be figured out must be bad.  It's human nature not to trust.

You didn't mention anything about the ELEVEN companies in the Pure Investor portfolio.  Do some more research.

PIPS is not giving 775% a year, they give 276 a year, big different ha?, 2% a day is included your initial investment.

WOW the only people even reading your stupid site are you and PIPS forum members simply because you posted the link.   Maybe you should find another profession because you have a lot of speculation and no FACTS.

Get em strait buddy...Here are a few to get you started seems how you need a hand...


PIPS Premier (has just been started up and has several products running on it already)
PIPS Financial Services (the licensing arm to take deposits legally from anywhere in the world)
PIC Capital (dealing with leasing and loans)
PIPS Realty (Property investments)
PICPAY (PIPS' own e-currency)
PIC Trust (trust company registered in New Zeeland)


CORPORATE BRIEF

Brokers
Refco Group Ltd. LLC is the world's largest non-bank futures commission merchant with more than US$3.3 billion in global client equity and holds membership in all principal International Exchanges. CBOT, CME, COMEX, CSC, EUREX, IPE, LIFFE, LME, NYMEX, SGX.

Fund Corporate Directors
EC Corporate Management incorporated under the Malaysian Companies Act 1965, Licensed and regulated by Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority ("LOFSA") to operate and conduct full range of activities permitted under Labuan Trust Companies Act 1990. EC Corporate Management services include provision for Corporate Director, the expertise to act as a Local Manager for the purpose of providing trading documentation services, administration i.e. back office services and managing the operational transaction flow of the trading activities.

PureInvestor
PureInvestor.Com Inc (Company No. LL 03518) incorporated under the Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority Malaysia.Company Directors: Bryan Marsden CEO,Foo Ming Lam,Phan Sew Ken,EC Corporate Management. Pureinvestor.Com Inc are the owners and operators of the Pureinvestor Portal.

PureInvestor Private Fund Inc.
PureInvestor Private Fund Inc (Company No. LL 03560) incorporated under the Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority Malaysia and is currently authorised up to US$100 Million. Company Directors: EC Corporate Management. PureInvestor Private Fund are Managers and Custodians of the Investment Funds.

Trading
Pureinvestor Trading is contracted out to independent Traders on a performance basis, this ensures maximum returns are achieved. The Asset and Portfolio Managers are however directly employed to manage the Trader activities and implement risk management policies.

Trustee
EC Trust (Labuan) Sdn Bhd is incorporated under the Malaysian Companies Act 1965, Licensed and regulated by Labuan Offshore Financial Services Authority ("LOFSA") to operate and conduct the full range of activities permitted under Labuan Trust Companies Act 1990 including acting as Trustee, agent, executor or administrator; incorporating or registering companies; settling Trusts; and the provision of management and accounting services to, or directors , secretaries and registered offices for, offshore companies. EC Trust provides the registered office and other services to PureInvestor.com Inc and PureInvestor Private Fund Inc.


PIPS Team Management


Bryan Marsden (CEO and founder of PureInvestor.com Inc)
Born in England, Bryan was trained and qualified as an Electrical Engineer in 1967. Working for the General Post Office, he developed his knowledge and skills in the areas of facilities Management until 1970 when he joined the Royal Air Force for a period of 5 years.

On leaving the Royal Air Force, Bryan continued his Facilities Management career with the National Health Service and various Facilities management organisations in th eprivate sector.

In 1986, Bryan established a Facilities Management partnership which successfully undertook major projects for corporate and public sector clients including IBM, LIFFE, London Stock Exchange, Credit Suisse First Boston Bank, Texaco and British Railways.

In 1994, he ventured into Malaysia to develop Facilities Management business inetrest and undertook Consultancy / Project Management projects at Kuala Lumpur International Airport, Guthrie and IOI in the palm industry.

Utilising the finance, analytical and business skills gained through many years in the Facilities Management industry, Bryan began the process of designing the Pure Investor model and initiated its launched in 2002.

Bryan's experience and expertise in wide variety of businesses and industry sectors has been teh guiding light for the growth and development of the Pure Investor Group.
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Alan Foo Ming Lam (Executive Director of PureInvestor)
A qualified accountant by training and profession. Alan is also a graduate in Food Science from Wyoming University, USA. His initial years as an accountant, between 1989 and 1994 with Tor & Cp, a Kuala Lumpur-based public accountants, exposed him to auditing, accounting, taxation and financial consultancy.

Eising from an audit trainee to general manager of Tor & Co, Alan took on more complex tasks, includinf financial consultancy for SMIs in multiple industries.

Five years later he joined as a business partner in Cheng & Co, another Kuala Lumpur-based public accountant and was primarily involved in business development activity of the firm, adding new top-notch companies to its portfolio of clients.

In 1996, Alan was appointed executive director of Top Assignments Consulting and since then he has been actively involved in the development of SMIs in Malaysia between 1997 and 2000, Alan has successfully assisted in securing close to RM90 million in loans for more than 20 companies from major commercial and goverment banks in Malaysia.

As the executive director of consulting frim for SMLs, Alan holds regular dialogue with Central Bank of Malaysia (Bank Negara), Credit Guarantee Corporation, Goverment Development Banks, the Malaysia Economic Planning Unit, under the Prime minister's Department, the Ministry of Finance in Malaysia and Commercial Banks, including offshore banks.
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Phan Sew Ken (Director of PureInvestor)
Phan is a Malaysian born of Chinese parentage. She undertook her teacher training at the Malayan Teacher's College and spent 10 years teachong young children in Goverment Schools.

In 1986, she undertook a number of business courses and ventured into the business world, taking up posts in the roles of secretary, administration and office manager with various international companies in the construction, development and infrastructure industries.

Her love for teaching young children saw Phan establish her own preschool company in 2000, providing education through nurseries, kindergartens and day care centres.

Phan's knowledge and expertise in administration has been invaluable in the setting up and operation of the PureInvestor offices.
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Gary J Nichol (Director / General Manager of PureInvestor.Com Inc) In Charge when Bryan is not in the office.
A result oriented leader with proven success in managing and controlling multimillion dollar companies with diverse interests, ranging from golf course development to investment and finance, Gary joined PureInvestor.Com late 2003 after three years as regional director of Asiatic Investments Ltd, an international offshore investment group with offices in Hong Kong and Seychelles.

A skilled negotiator with sharp business acumen, Gary has track record of bringing companies fron the brink to profitability and implementing drastic corporate alignment programs which positively contributed to profitability ahead of targets or doubling of the share price within a short time.

With a strong background in and a passion for landscaping. Gary set out early in his career as general manager with Suncoast Greens Pty Ltd, a golf course renovation and contracting firm in Brisbane.

Six years later, he left to lecture at Queensland TAFE, Nambour, Australia in golf course management and horticulture. Gary is credited with being the first Australian lecturer to design study modules in gold course design.

He left lecturing for better prospect with Rodger Davis Golf Course Design in Queensland as its chief executive officer and moved to Malaysia in 1991. Before taking up this international posting, Gary, who studied civil engineering and landscape architecture at Queensland University of Technology, was national sales and marketing manager for a year with one of Australia's largest resort developers, Roach Property & development. A year earlier, he held a similiar position at Home Corp Pty Ltd, also in Sydney where he boosted bottom line profits and transformed company business in two years by the use of technology to re-engineer financial and investment products.
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Mohamad Ayub Abdul Malek (Director / General Manager of PIC Capital Sdn Bhd)
Mohamad Ayub is a Corporate Banker and as Director cum General Manager of PIC Capital, he is responsible for the Portfolio Team looking after investments in various hire purchase and leasing activities of the fund. He brings with him more than 15 years experience in risk assets.

Mohamad Ayub has held a number of roles during his 20-odd years in corporate banking, credit & marketing and venture capital.

He was previously AFFIN Finance Berhad's (AFB) Assistant General Manager of Marketing & Business Development. Besides ensuring AFB's risk assets, he monitored the effectiveness of the credit and marketing terms and personally veted all corporate proposals prior to presentation to AFB board of directors for approval.

A Hartford University, MBA graduate, Mohamad Ayub started his career in 1977 with pharmaceutical manufacturer, Inchcape Group of Companies Malaysia, as a production executive tasked with the smooth running of the production lines.

Seven years later, he left to join IBM World Trade Corporation as marketing representative. Between 1986 and April 1990, Mohamad Ayub served with Chase Manhattan Bank N.A, Kuala Lumpur and Oriental Bank Berhad as credit & marketing officer. In May 1990 he was appointed Assistant Vice President (credit & marketing) of Security Asian Bank Ltd in charge of maintenance of corporate loans portfolio and business development.


*IMPORTANT EDIT: THIS CALCULATION ONLY HOLDS TRUE FOR A LINEAR MEMBERSHIP GROWTH (see bottom of post)*


So today was a slow day at work, I was bored, and I decided to confront “said words” with cold mathematics.

First a bit of infos about me. I am a member of PIPS, but unlike most of the people who post here, I’m not a man of blind faith. Only logic, verifiable facts and cold mathematics are my religion .PIPS likes to throw around a lot of incredible, mind-blowing numbers, numbers that almost always made me smile with a “yeah right” expression on my face. I’m sure a lot of you, people who wish to stay anonymous and not post, think like me. I’ve already posted a few messages here, and also been called a troll a few times (thanks guys, I love you too!).

Anyway the calculation that will follow is based on one and only FACT: the fact that until now every single member has been paid their withdrawals. I’ve looked all around the web and I couldn’t find any single message about a pipster not being paid (well unless PIPS “silence” them before ).

I’ll be doing the calculation based on the worst case for us members/best case for pureinvestor.com. I’ll consider the current growing rate to be 6000 members per month (could be more or could be much less, the calculation would still be proportionate). Still following the worst case scenario, I’ll consider that every member has put their reinvestment on a poorly planned 60% since the opening of their account.

To avoid complex calculations, I’ll assume that all members took the $450 account option with no additional investment. I know it doesn’t reflect reality, as many took the 3*$170 option and many others added more money to their $450 account. But that would only add complexity to the calculation, without really changing the ending conclusion. But if you have some free time to kill, go ahead…

So:

6000 members after 18 months: that’s 6000/18 = 333 new additional members on average coming every month, on top of the previous month growth number.
That makes us a total of 333*(18+17+16+15+14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1) = 56943 total members in PIPS today (I think that matches pretty closely what has been told too - for *PIPS* alone -).

Now all these members spent $450: that makes a total of $25,624,350 in PIPS bank account, accumulated in 18 months.

Ok now time to pull out the trusty Torben Simulator and calculate what members got paid so far: (Total withdrawal * number of members for each month)

For those who joined
18 months ago: 7677.76*333 = $2,556,694.08
17 months ago: 6478.70*333*2 = $4,314,814.20
16 months ago: 5439.76*333*3 = $5,434,320.24
15 months ago: 4542.22*333*4 = $6,050,237.04
14 months ago: 3768.70*333*5 = $6,274,885.50
13 months ago: 3101.19*333*6 = $6,196,177.62
12 months ago: 2533.25*333*7 = $5,905,005.75
11 months ago: 2047.38*333*8 = $5,454,220.32
10 months ago: 1630.99*333*9 = $4,888,077.03
09 months ago: 1276.15*333*10 = $4,249,579.50
08 months ago: 979.14*333*11 = $3,586,589.82
07 months ago: 736.07*333*12 = $2,941,335.72
06 months ago: 541.71*333*13 = $2,345,062.59

I’ll stop here, assuming newer people are holding on withdrawals for a bit.
So Total Paid until today = $57,851,936.69

To recap, in 18 months:
$25,624,350 into PIPS
$57,851,936.69 out of PIPS

So, following that worst case scenario, there is like 2 times more money taken out, than money brought in. Therefore, unless my math is totally messed up, there is no way that PIPS could be a ponzi! (that is, paying older members with newer members money).

And hopefully with the Allianz insurance around the corner (ETA anyone? Been waiting since August now…), we will be assured that the money PIPS make is clean money



===================================


ADDED EDIT:


Nostrade wrote:
Yautja wrote:
... as I considered a worst case scenario. By worst case I mean a scenario that would benefit PIPS the most (they would have to pay us the less possible amount while getting as much money as they can from us).


...and this was what I pointed out. An exponential growth of members would be the worst case scenario (PI gaining the most - as you write), not a linear one (333 per month). Fact is that we were less than 10.000 members in mars/april this year...

Nostrade


Yes, thanks for pointing this out Nostrade. The calculation, in its current state, only holds true in the case of a linear growth.
But if there were only really 10000 members by April 2004, then the growth would be EXPONENTIAL (which would indeed mean lots more money for PIPS bank), as we are about 60k members now.

Now since I can’t draw the member’s growth curve without having more data on membership pre-April 2004, I can hardly determine any amount of money taken out.

I’ll only be able to do an accurate, exponential-based calculation in like 4-6 months from now. So until then, you guys will have to rely on the conventions stuff for those who can go there, and what you can find on the web for those who can't. Sorry.

Visitante, it IS possible to have returns in excess of 1000% per year on any given year.

It IS impossible to promise those returns and start paying them in a 2% daily basis.

Do you understand the difference?

Or do you really believe Bryan is the Jesus of finance and only he can get those returns, and he decided to spread them through the face of earth even while not doing the same for himself previously?

Do you really believe that?

Ok, lets see if we can get this discussion to a more proper level, too.

Let me ask you something I ask all PIPSters.

If it turns out to be a fraud, what will you morally do? Will you hand over the money you got from other people you even assured was no fraud?

Well consider this.

For over 6 months there have been serious problems with
the referral scheme. People signing others up did not get
their commissions, and members on the PIPS forum were
SHOUTING for it to be fixed. Scores of people would not
bring in new people because of it.

Now, if PIPS were a ponzi, would it not focus on fixing that
problem a.s.a.p.??

I give you the 2 possible answers:

1) Their computer programmers are really stupid and just could not do it, whereas all scammers could
2) Bringing in new funds is not really important, and they rather focus on strenghtening the programs that bring the 2% in.

seeing all that their IT have accomplished, it only leaves option 2.

Happy Pips Member (not Visitante)

And when it turns out to not be a fraud, will you pay all the people do didn't join the interest that they would have gained?

Incognitus,
Where did my post indicate that I think Ponzis need an MLM structure?
Pips does not have an MLM scheme.It only pays a straight $10/m for personal referrals.

I was pointing out that they have not been helping the process
of getting new members in, by their inaction to fix the
referral commissions. Members were angry, not because of the
$10 per se, but because it made pips look unprofessional.

You were (are) saying that all funds come from the (new) members.
I was saying that if that is the case, that PIPS would have focussed on things that help getting new members in.

I think it's not a scam. Your opinion, which I respect, may differ.

Happy PIPS Member

Your statment are 100% wrong!!!

Don't bring Sorros, Gates or Buffet on the table before you know what you are talking about dude.

Buffet, Gates & Sorros are counpounding their interests and they have exponential ecrease of their money and it is much more than 30-40% per annum!!!!

I know at least 10 companies paying 100% and more per annum since decade to their members. No one is a PONZI.

Just don't compare apple with orange...

Or you wont be credible

IRobot

If you don't believe me, you can always check it yourself here:

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2003ltr.pdf